When “Nice Guys” Aren’t: The Sexism of the “Friend Zone”

As a feminist blogger, I am privy to all sorts of phenomena that most people notice but don’t necessarily have a name for. There’s misogynist bingo, slut-shaming, the madonna-whore dichotomy, and a million others. But out of all of them, one always rises to the top of my list of most annoying and most frequent: The Nice GuyTM Syndrome.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with this one, The Nice GuyTM Syndrome the phenomenon in which a self-proclaimed “nice guy” laments about how his close female friends – for whom he harbors feelings – never want to have a relationship or sex with him. “Why does she always go for the jerk?” the “nice guy” laments. “I’m such a NICE GUY!” Often in these situations, the woman has no idea what his feelings are. Other times, they know but don’t reciprocate, preferring to carry on a friendship than a relationship.

This, apparently, is totally unacceptable to them. There are memes devoted to the dreaded “friend zone.” There are angsty chain Facebook statuses that are posted passive aggressively time and time again. One of them reads, “A  woman has a close male friend. This means he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much.” Right, because no one wants to be friends with a woman unless she’s having sex with them eventually, right? The status continues to compare a woman just wanting a friendship with a man to a job interview in which the potential employer says, “You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we’re not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But we’re going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic.” 

See? Super, super nice.

…the nerve?

The insidious problem with these “nice guys” is that as much as they think they like or love the objects of their affection, they certainly don’t respect these women. Instead, they stew bitterly in a sense of their own entitlement, waiting indignantly for something that was never promised to them.

I’ve been in a committed relationship with a nice guy for three years. Not a Nice GuyTM, but a guy who was (and is) actually nice. Let me try to demonstrate the difference.

You’ve Got a Friend In Me

When I transferred to my alma mater four years ago, I immediately fell in with a fantastic little group of friends. There were eight of us, six guys and two girls. From orientation, we were basically inseparable, and I fully credit the best times of my life to these wonderful people.

Of the six guys, five of them were straight. I briefly dated one of them, but when things didn’t work out we went back to being friends. Almost as soon as that happened, another one of the guys, John*, told me that he was incredibly attracted to me if I ever wanted to hook up with him. I told him that I wasn’t interested, and we moved on with our lives. We had become best friends, and we were set to be roommates the following year, and he assured me there would be no hard feelings.

Clearly, everyone is barely tolerating each other until the sex starts.

That summer, John and I talked a lot. He was a really attractive guy, and more importantly, we were best friends. We talked almost every day, he could crack me up, and I started to develop a crush on him too. We started getting a little more flirty, and I decided that when I saw him over the summer, I would take him up on his previous offer and make a move.

But then I met The Bass Player. The Bass Player was a member of a pretty successful band who was just starting to get big that summer. After seeing them play a show in Vancouver, BC, I caught a ride with the band back to Seattle, where I was living for the summer. Yes, you’ve probably seen that movie, and yes, it’s a total cliche. Had I bothered watching that movie to the end, I probably would have seen it coming. The Bass Player and I did not end up in a relationship, I fell for him anyway, and ended up totally brokenhearted when he acquired a serious girlfriend while on the road.

During that brief fling, I told John everything that was happening. He gave me advice (mainly he gave me a hard time for being such a groupie, because that’s just what friends do), and we stopped flirting. There was no weirdness when we saw each other during that time. He didn’t act as though he had been robbed of his birthright. He acted like my friend, because he was my friend, and valued that bond.

When The Bass Player told me that he had a girlfriend – which left me dejected and more than a little drunk in the middle of Manhattan – John was the first person I called. He didn’t tell me “I told you so”, he didn’t throw it in my face that I could have been with him and he would never do that to me. He told me that he was sorry, and the guy was a jerk that didn’t deserve me. Again, he did that because that’s what friends do.

Real Nice Guys Don’t Finish Last

A month later, John and I moved into one of our college’s two room doubles. Early into that living situation, I drank enough that it was the stuff of legend, burst into his side of the room singing and yelling like a lunatic, and the rest…well, the rest is not fit to print. 

We remained friends with benefits for a while, then decided that the charade was ridiculous. We finally admitted that a relationship was what we both wanted, and we have been living together as partners ever since. 

That relationship never would have happened if he had been condescending, or acted as if my vagina was the currency with which he needed to be paid for being my friend. Whether we were friends or something more, we were equals. He never changed the way he treated me simply because he was attracted to me. He genuinely liked me and cared about me, and had I never been with him romantically, I have no doubt in my mind that we would still have ended up close. Friendship is one of the most sacred bonds there is. And if you can’t respect a woman enough to love being her friend, what makes you think that you respect her enough to be her date?

Friendship is not a tool to manipulate women into sleeping with you, guys. Out of the five straight men I was close with in college, I ended up with one. I’d like to think that the other five still value me as a positive part of their lives. As someone else in the vast feminist blogosphere once said, women are not machines that you put friendship tokens into until sex falls out. If you can’t handle that simple fact, you probably aren’t ready to date anyone. 

So stop listening to women because you want to sleep with them. Stop measuring the worth of your female friends in terms of whether or not they’re willing to hook up with you. If you have sincere, romantic feelings for a woman you’re friends with, be up front with her. And if she doesn’t feel the same way? Value her anyway. Be her friend. Because the most valuable people we have in our lives, regardless of gender, are our true friends. 

And is that really the worst zone to be in?

*Not his real name.
  • somedood

    Written by
    A woman who has no idea the bullcrap we go through.

  • Yondy Nusovak

    As much as I want to agree with you, I am afraid that for some people the friend zone does exist. It is out there, just not as often as people make it seem. I guess it’s story time…

    Many months ago I met this girl (let’s call her Liza) and I thought she was perfect in every way. She and I talked a lot and we shared many of the same interests. I tried not to rush into anything, so I kept my intentions a secret. We became very good friends. All that time I was totally star struck over her. I took her to the movies several times, I took her out to dinner, I took her out for ice cream, all that good stuff. She even went as far enough to invite me to celebrate her birthday with her family. I had gotten her a $40 necklace as a way to tell her that I was interested. At that point I didn’t know whether or not she was. After that I saw her wearing it almost all the time. Then one Friday night we went to see the Taken sequel (at her request) and after I took her to get ice cream. It had been a couple months at that point and I finally told her that I loved her. She was taken aback and asked if we could speak outside. Nothing in the world could have prepared me for that. She told me “Yondy, (not my real name) my last relationship didn’t end very well, and because of that I never talk to my ex anymore. I really don’t want that to happen to us, because I value our friendship too much.” I agreed with her of course. However, driving her home while fighting the tears back was one of the hardest things to do in my life. I was at a loss for words, I understood what she meant, but I “hated” her for making me feel like this. I hated myself for not making my intentions clear. I still respected her, and that didn’t make me love her any less. Was it my fault for saying i loved her? Was it her fault for not taking the hint? I have eventually decided that all of that was my fault. i never should have told her how i felt. I know some people might be thinking that i only wanted her for sex, but i know for a fact it wasn’t true. Whenever i looked at her, i realized that i could die a virgin as long as it was me who was buried beside her for the rest of eternity. I understand her wanting to be friends, and i am okay with that. I never complained or said anything negative about it. Now whenever i see her i am still filled with these emotions, but i feel guilty for still feeling this way. The worst part is, after that night I never saw her wear that necklace I got for her again.

    Story over. I understand that this is probably the same story every man tells. But I firmly believe in unrequited love. The friend zone exists, just not too the extent people want you to believe. The friend zone is a temporary emotion where you are filled with love, anger, confusion, hatred, and sadness. People usually go through this after realizing that their love is unrequited. It disappears after a few days. But even though I still find myself longing for her love every day. Think what you ant about me, call me a misogynist. I probably am for all I know. I just wanted to get my story out there, and hopefully someone could give me advice.

    • Social Norm

      You have options. Don’t ever forget that. My advice is to stop giving spouse benefits to a platonic friend. It wards off other potential partners. Though you may feel good giving/doing things for said person, it could become a painful addiction if you are not careful.

      Good luck.

  • http://Goodell Roger

    I’m sorry but does anyone think that this is just about the dumbest topic of discussion on planet earth. If he/she doesn’t want to date you either a) move on or b) remain a platonic friend. Option b is clearly a little tricky, but if you know where to draw the lines it could be a great friendship.

    • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/jesse Jesse Lawson

      This topic isn’t dumb; when men feel “friendzoned” they often get misogynistic. That’s the problem.

  • Social Norm

    Well, I’ll keep this brief. Having been on both sides, being in and putting someone in the friend zone, it is not something that I am proud of. However, I think that condoning taking advantage of someone in that position, putting them in the ‘friend zone’ knowing that they want more, is worthy of a backlash.

    • Correction

      Being in the friendzone does not imply that you are using them, in fact, usually the person putting the other person in the friendzone has no idea they are even doing it.

      • Social Norm

        If they don’t know what they are taking advantage of their friend it’s still a bad thing. However it is exponentially easier to forgive them. Just because you don’t know it is wrong doesn’t make it acceptable. Then again that is just another social norm.

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  • steve

    However, what would have happened if this was an all gay male group of friends?
    I’m guessing that the FWB arrangement would have been the dominant type of dynamic.

    • Jonas

      That’s offensive and irrelevant to the subject of the article.

      • Steve

        Well, As a gay man, I don’t find it offensive. Nor is it irrelevant, we are after all talking about aspects of sexuality and points of difference between men and women. And I think it is instructive as an outlier case.

        Study after study have highlighted some key differences between men’s and women’s sexualities. We particularly have different wants when it comes to casual or low investment relationships.

        Feminist ideology has exactly nothing to do with how I, a man, relate to other male friends and what we choose to get up too.
        Of the 7 or so close gay friends I had at uni we all slept and (20 years later continue to sleep ) with each other on a regular basis. There was no friend zone.

        I feel strongly for my hero mates. Particularly the average looking average means guys. At every turn there sexuality is disparaged by women and they get to live less than fulfilling sexlives.

        • Jonas

          I clearly misinterpreted your first statement, and I apologize.

          I’m not sure how your story relates to the article’s content though.

  • Anonymous

    I think from my personal experience me being a nice guy and stuff I was able to get dates and was in two serious relationships ever in my life. LIke I personally think if you are true to yourself and change some things in your life not only your lifestyle will be better but whoever you’re dating you can have an impact on their lifestyle as well. One girl I’m like dating right now told me she never had these deep feelings for a guy in awhile and I was saying to myself that’s impressive during that time I was making some changes in my lifestyle and stuff. So I think the Nice Guy, Bad Boy, and this so called friendzone is something that those clowns in the whitehouse use in the social media to make us think that we have to be something else just for the opposite sex to like us. To you guys and even you ladies be true to yourself because your relationships can last for a long time if you do it right. God bless friends.

  • Anonymous

    Well I am grateful that I found this page and read it as I feel it is very important to read both sides of the tale. Your viewpoints helped open my eyes to the “other side” (for a lot of the blogs on this subject are men posting about “the Friendzone”) and got me to consider points about my own situation. Even if I confess myself confused about how to apply it to my situation as it seems like everything with mine is a series of contradictions or irrational behavior. I can’t say I am friendzoned as our friendship has collapsed after mutual misinterpretation about each others intentions(as I found out through third party) , with a lot of it being my fault and fewer being hers -yet despite that I have never stopped caring for her. However instead of going through a period of resentment I immediately dived into improving myself almost fanatically- at first for her but then because I genuinely wanted to turn myself into a better person. Whereas I was a poor student I started excelling in college, getting near straight As from a previous C student. I started talking to people more, fixing flawed relationships with my family, and even exercising . I was a flat slob who played video games for 17-18 hours a day (Not an exaggeration unfortunately) whereas now I rarely play them and exercise at least an hour everyday. I volunteer at programs around my area and though I still feel that I need to continue working on myself I feel happier with who I am .

    Back to her I continue to wish her well and care for her. Even though we rarely talk (though I am on good terms with her family). I don’t know where I fit into your classification as a NICE GUYTM, nice guy, guy who is being ridiculous or what have you. I confess to having physical attraction to her*, but they only emerged AFTER I started liking her as more then a friend and I am still unsure of whether to be ashamed of them or not , as I think it takes away from my romantic feelings that are more important . I used to hold some resentment for her and self-resentment but I have realized the folly of both of those feelings (though the latter sometimes crops up still). Though it does sadden me a bit I accept that there may be nothing that occurs between us, and want her to find a person better then me should that be the case. I want to be her friend and to talk to her. Truthfully I want to further improve myself and better my life before I consider pursuing any woman, though I hope that in the long term that something comes between us like what happened between you and John (before you ask, No I don’t believe I am “entitled” to it). However I do have one off-topic concern…
    I worry that she has an Alcohol problem given my perception that she drinks too much based on talking to her and her mother once ( I feel drinking to a moderate proportion is perfectly fine , however call me conservative but I worry when someone gets wasted every other night) and have made my feelings known but they were ignored. Alcohol has nothing to do with her not feeling for me back, but it is something that worries me about her. I am stuck on solutions.

    * I am unsure on the degree of physical attractiveness, as she has posted pictures of herself wasted and in a bikini. This honestly didn’t “turn me on” or make me feel attracted to her, only made me feel sadness.

    Since this is the internet and since I honestly enjoyed what I read as it gave me a bit of a better understanding of this situation, I am going to leave this here in part because I am anonymous on the internet and why not? and because I would appreciate any advice that you have, even as I realize this is not an advice column but an opinion piece.

    • Anonymous

      If I am being unequal please correct, as I believe from observing relationships that my friends have had that equality is paramount in all of them, as even if said equal relationship doesn’t work out you still leave as friends while even the best unequal relationships that result in marriage don’t often result in mutual happiness.

  • Mike

    I think this is an interesting blog, and the comments below are even more interesting. I agree that for the most part guys in the friend zone do not end up with the woman they so desire. BUT, when they do it very often leads to marriage. At least that has been my experience (specifically thinking of a friend of mine and his wife). I think it worked in the story above because the guy didn’t let the girl just wanting to be “just friends” bother him. Or if he did, it sounds like he kept it under wraps. I think he was OK with just being her friend, whereas many guys are very unhappy in the friend zone ( and that is unhealthy if the guy is not getting his needs met). I had a similar situation with a woman I had a huge crush on. We dated, she wasn’t interested. I told her I wanted to be friends; all of a sudden she now becomes interested and we hook up (she virtually raped me). I realize women can’t change their makeup and wiring, but it is very frustrating that a woman acts interested one day and changes her mind the next (In story above the author flirts with her friend, then changes course and goes after the bass player before changing course again and going back to the friend. This is same guy she wasn’t interested in two years ago. And now they are insperable and in love. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? THIS IS WHY DATING is so difficult for dudes. We can’t comprehend this on any level. It doesn’t make sense – AT ALL.

  • Jeremy

    After reading this, I have to say that while there is a lot to agree with, my biggest issue with it is in the very last paragraph, in which it’s implied that a person who has unrequited feelings for another should maintain a platonic friendship with them.

    I should preface this by saying that I don’t feel this is a gendered issue, certainly not strictly. I’m of course aware that society tends to carry different expectations and stereotypes for women vs. men in this situation, but as far as I’m concerned, I would tell (and have told) female friends with unrequited feelings for a male friend – or friend with benefits – the same advice. And that is this: do not make or maintain friendships with people you harbor deeper feelings for.

    It’s great that “John” eventually became the author’s boyfriend (although I might note that, technically, he did “finish last” compared to the unnamed bassist and one or two of her other friends, but still). However, from personal experience and observation, this is really the exception to the rule, and in this case, probably a product of good timing as much as anything. As it is, although I can’t speak for him, I have to say that being in the same shoes, it would have been incredibly helpful for me to be able to maintain the “friendship” from a distance for a time, apart from feelings that might rise to the surface much more seeing my friend in person.

    I have been in the “nice guy” position described in the article, and certainly, at times fell into the same traps of thinking (though, another quibble: while the “entitlement” issue is certainly valid, my main motivation was still a real relationship and NOT sex. Although the two may go hand in hand, I was most desperate for a loving relationship and not just casual hookups. I can’t speak for everyone, but most guys I’ve known in the same shoes have been the same way.) In high school and through most of college, I was the guy generally ignored by girls and consequently became a reluctant “late bloomer.” During that time, I also fell madly in love with at least a couple female friends (at different times, of course). In one case, I became her confidant on her troubles with her jerkass boyfriend – and I don’t say that lightly, as I grudgingly came to like and even befriend other boyfriends of hers later, but this guy really was a piece of work and was at the very least emotionally abusive – and on her struggles with an eating disorder, among other things. I was the only one she discussed some of these issues with at times. I cared for her deeply and was pretty determined to be there for her no matter what, at pretty much any time.

    And here’s the thing: this wasn’t healthy. For either of us. I was being (however unintentionally) used, and couldn’t see it because I was too blinded by my feelings and my hope that eventually she might come around and see me the same way, and in fact I (much) later learned that she did for a time. And it wasn’t good for her either, because what she needed was someone who could be her platonic friend and confidant, and I couldn’t be. My feelings eventually got in the way and I ended up deeply hurting both of us in the process.

    This doesn’t mean all straight male/female friendships are doomed. I certainly have plenty of female friends I see strictly as valued friends, and I’ve even been the one to turn down advances once or twice. With that said, one thing I’ve learned from the whole experience is this: if you have serious feelings for someone, or dated someone and had it end on anything other than purely mutual terms, or the person is just not someone you feel you are capable of being friends with without developing real feelings: don’t be friends with them. Barring the occasional lucky circumstance, it usually doesn’t end well and one or both parties ends up getting hurt. I was lucky enough that, after some feelings had subsided, I was able to resume a friendship with the girl I mentioned above. But I do have to say that formally cutting the friendship off, as I did (temporarily) at the time, was the best and healthiest thing for me and that I wouldn’t have met or been capable of having a relationship with my – finally – first girlfriend at the time had I remained friends with someone who could not share my feelings. I would have remained fixated and it would not have been good for either person.

    This really is a simple thing. If someone turns you down, be polite about it, be respectful, and certainly don’t throw a fit and act entitled. But don’t be their friend just because. That isn’t an equal or fair situation for either of you.

    One last thing: I think it’s worth noting that the “nice guys” talked about here tend to be most predominantly in their teens and early 20s. Certainly there are a few 30s and 40s (and perhaps older) men in that category that remain in a particularly bad case of arrested development, but from personal experience and observation, I think most of them tend to be fairly young men. And while this also isn’t necessarily gendered, or not strictly, I think it’s fair to say that a lot of inexperienced young women (and men, I’m sure) tend to easily fall in with that first or second romantic partner based purely on their confidence or some other factor, and don’t always know what they are doing. In short, yes, they do often pick jerks and people who mistreat them. And for a shy, inexperienced young man who reaches the end of their high school or even college years without so much as a date, and watches their female friends always running off with men who mistreat them, I think it’s understandable that many of them would become a little bit bitter and start to feel that women prefer to date jerks. The actual truth of course is a bit different: women (and many men) tend to prefer confident potential partners who make the first move, and unfortunately, this tends to have at least a little correlation to cockiness and occasionally just assholery; genuinely mean or uncaring people are rarely lacking in confidence (and less “conventionally attractive” people tend to have not only less confidence but just more trouble in general in attracting partners, which is another important component of this and probably a major factor in the “nice guy” syndrome). Thus, the real issue isn’t that these guys are “too nice” but simply that they lack confidence, and this is something that I personally had to learn over time as I eventually started to find the sorts of dating partners that make me happy (mostly, geeky feminist types). But having been in something of the same situation, I have a hard time demonizing ALL of these shy dudes as assholes somehow corrupting the “nice guy” label; a lot of them are down on their luck and still figuring things out, and they’re just as frustrated and confused by the dating game as the rest of us.

  • A.

    why do i get the feeling that any guy who does to a girl what you did to john* would be considered a complete asshole. i seriously doubt that you would (or even could) be understanding toward a guy who:
    decided he wasn’t interested, and made it clear
    decided he was interested
    started flirting
    abandoned her for musician (or anyone for that matter)
    came back when things didn’t work out

  • James

    “Let me explain. We flirted for a few months, I met someone else, the flirtation stopped. But the friendship didn’t end. He wasn’t bitter that nothing continued from there, because he valued my friendship and me as a person.”

    That sounds rather convenient for you. Him being such a nice guy, there is no risk to you of losing that valuable friendship. He’s such a nice guy that he doesn’t even resent you when you come to him after each failed relationship.

    So, he’s a true friend, content to let you decide for yourself whom you will love, even if he must sacrifice his own feelings for your freedom of choice. That is what friends do, they are there for each other through thick and thin. Through sickness and health, through good times and bad, for richer or poorer, until death do you part. No, that is not right. That is a marriage vow.

    Such a nice guy, he never burdened you with an ultimatum. Such a nice guy, you never had to risk your friendship. Such a nice guy, you could turn the flirting on and off and he never let his feelings show in the times that they were unwanted. Such an incredibly nice guy.

    He was your best friend, and he loved you. You took for granted the things a friendship doesn’t grant you, and he let you because he loved you. Though you are ignorant of it, he loved you and you used him without regard. Though you did not know it, hidden away as it was behind your friendship, the heart toiled and grew weary. Though you would not admit it, your friendship was a fraud because he loved you.

    • Thadd

      Congrats, you’re the idiot that missed the entire point of everything she just wrote.

    • Mahreeah

      Seems like you missed the entire point of the article.

    • Tyler

      You are literally too stupid to insult.

    • Jon

      James, buddy, read the article again. Now every time you identify with the long suffering nice guy, change places. Put yourself in Augusta’s place, or any women who is so mean that she won’t return the nice guys feelings, and insert a random gay friend in your place. (I’m being serious). So instead of her um…hooking up with a bassist, pretend it was you and that your gay friend felt hurt that you didn’t return his feelings and that you ‘used’ him for his friendship. How long would it take for you to resent your gay friend? How hurt would you be that your friendship is based on conditions that are unfairly imposed by the other party? Be honest about it.
      This is what women often go through, especially with younger men. I should know. I did precisely everything that “nice guys” often do to their female friends. It’s unfair to them, and ultimately unfair to you, because you will stick around lick a bad cold and not do the healthy thing and find a nice girlfriend to settle down with. If you ever get in the position where a female friend doesn’t return your affection and you feel like you can’t handle it, leave the friendship. But make absolutely certain that she understands it’s because YOU aren’t quite mature enough to deal with it. Apologize a bunch of times and then move along. Eventually, you will be able to deal with it because you recognized the problem, and like a smart cookie, you took care of it. And eventually, you will be welcomed into the wonderful world of actually having girls who are friends who you can be yourself around and whom you can value as people rather than as potential targets for chivalrous urges.
      Great article Augustus.

    • Maxone

      agreed bro.

  • ednksu

    I think my favorite part was when she rejected the friend zone narrative, but than it turned out she was the completion of the cliche. MyNameIsJonas cares a lot more and provides better analsysis, but I just wanted to point out the failure of Christensen to realize who she really is/was. Way to keep another guy in orbit till you needed him, I’m glad one nice guy was able to beat the system, even as the Christensen tries to hide behind an absurd feminist position.

    • Ellen

      Here’s the point –>.

      Here’s you –>. Congrats.

  • MyNameIsJonas

    I guess I’m confused as to whether you think the majority of self-proclaimed “Nice Guys” fall into the category you’ve described above. If that is the case, then I’m worried that this article introduces, and perpetuates, a couple ideas about “Nice Guys” that aren’t true for the vast majority of them; that the next time a reader sees a guy posting “man I wish she’d stop dating those assholes and take me out of the friend zone” they’re going default to your description of Nice Guys above.

    1) “So stop listening to women because you want to sleep with them”

    The article seems to suggest a lot of members of the Nice Guy group go in with this sneaky intention of “hey, I’ll sleaze up to her as a friend and then totally try and work this into a sex/relationship angle.” Similar to what you described with your significant other John, oftentimes feelings simply evolve. Historically, I’ve made friends with girls and realized that I have developed an attraction to their personality; so much so that it has changed the way I feel about them on a physical level and where I had no attraction before, I now find them to be irresistible. Regardless of the sequence, if someone is both emotionally and physically attracted to someone of the opposite sex (or the same sex for that matter) and presuming their both single, why wouldn’t they try and push the relationship to develop into something more?

    For many of these guys, the answer is that they are afraid of losing that connection with said friend/love interest. They’d rather have their status quo relationship than risk losing it completely by trying to take it to the next step. Valuing your time with someone else so much that you’re afraid of rocking the boat and losing it that doesn’t sound like something an asshole would do, but rather something someone who lacks a bit of courage would do. If you want to write an article telling Nice Guys (and Girls) to nut up or shut up, then let’s write that article instead.

    2) “Friendship is not a tool to manipulate women into sleeping with you, guys”

    You’re article implies that that Nice Guys just want sex. I’m pretty sure the friend-zoned guys I know are desperately looking enter into a serious, meaningful relationship with the person they are interested in, not a “let’s just casually fornicate all the time” situation. Look at the resume analogy, the idea isn’t that Nice Guy can screw you better and you should let him do it, it’s that he can be a better complement compared to the guys you grip about. I don’t think this is an entitlement to a female’s vagina issue, I think it’s a “I can be a better boyfriend, please let me show you” issue.

    The majority of Nice Guys who post the stuff you’re referencing are probably really good people, and they don’t feel entitled to anyone’s vagina, they just want their chance to show their friend how well they should be treated. You may have deterred a few douchebags from using a bullshit friend angle with your article, although in all likelihood the douchebags won’t change their approach. Conversely, I suspect you disproportionately stomped on the feelings of a lot of good fellas that just haven’t mustered up the courage to express themselves or haven’t been able to move on; guys who may, or may not, have let a status update slip through in their frustration. I’m sure your article is aimed towards the douchebags and you even reference John* as a contrasting figure, but there are a crap ton of guys that fall in between John* and entitled and I think this article doesn’t give them the benefit of the doubt.

    • Mel

      “I’m pretty sure the friend-zoned guys I know are desperately looking enter into a serious, meaningful relationship with the person they are interested in, not a “let’s just casually fornicate all the time” situation.”

      Unfortunately many of the comments on this very thread would serve as evidence of the opposite.

      • MyNameIsJonas

        I won’t defend the people who post on here, I’m speaking from sum of my personal experiences and those of friends’. If you’re ready to extrapolate these posts, some of which are serious and others are simply trolling/joking (i.e. playstation analogy), to encompass your definition of a Nice Guy I think you’re doing yourself a disservice and I’m not here to stand in your way.

  • Mel

    Thanks for writing this, Augusta. While I understand the other commenters who feel that you’re dismissing men’s feelings or just not seeing it from their side, this was helpful to me as I try to deal with a Friend Zone situation.

    I thought I’d made it clear in the 10+ years of our friendship that I wasn’t interested/attracted, but just last week he threw a little tantrum because I “never gave him a chance” and am “so standoffish” because I wouldn’t drop everything (I was working from home) and go out to a bar with him. And he wonders why it took so long for me to even agree to meet for coffee rather than restrict our conversations to in the workplace or email. I feel like if I give him an inch, he’ll take a mile…and I don’t want him to have a mile.

    Anyway. A personal anecdote from a friend of a Nice Guy.

  • Marcus

    So let me get this straight…

    If I have a best friend, and he has a playstation, and I want to play his playstation, he should let me right? And if he doesn’t, I have a right to be like “WTF dude?? I thought we were friends!”

    So how come if by best friend is a female, and she has this really cool vagina that I wanna try sticking my penis into, and she won’t let me, I can’t be like “WTF dude?? I thought we were friends! Why you hoggin that shit??!!??

    Talk about a double standard!

    • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/jesse Jesse Lawson

      Well see your first problem is that you equate a woman’s vagina to a playstation…

    • Kae Oz

      Totally. Just as if any of your male friends (especially the one with the playstation) wants to play with your really cool penis and/or prostate, you totally would let them whenever no matter your own feelings, or lack there of, towards them. Because our bodies are totally just toys for other people and nothing personal to us what so ever.

    • CPB

      Spoken like a true 12yr old troll. The scary thing is you probably think you’re funny and clever…ick.

  • http://www.facebook.com/protoman21 Keith Rogers

    I see where you are coming from, but I don’t think you truly understand what it is like to be in that position. A Nice Guy in the Friend Zone is going to bend over backwards for the girl that he likes and do things for her that he would never ever do for a guy friend or a girl he isn’t interested in. This isn’t because he wants sex, but because he wants to do whatever he can to be important to her and show that he cares.

    Girls who take advantage of this guy are the ones who should be chastised. Girls who know how the guy feels about her, but who continue to string him along or burden him with all of their problems. Yes, a true friend cares about their friend and helps them out, just like the Nice Guy does, but the difference is that most of the time these relationships aren’t balanced and he always does more for her than she does for him.

    • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/augusta Augusta Christensen

      Yes, how silly of me. Women are never victims of unrequited love, they are never led on. Oh wait, they totally are. But when women are in that position, they’re “crazy bitches,” and when men are in that position they’re just “nice guys” who are so misunderstood. Seems awfully convenient.

      • Mike

        Whist checking to see if the gentleman who responded to me acknowledged my response, I happened across this brief exchange and couldn’t resist. Mr Rodgers here simply made the claim that in an asymmetrical romantic relationship it’s the one that holds the power that ought to be chastised. I’m not convinced by this claim, but i do take objection to your reading of it. At what point is it stated or even implied that women are never victims of unrequited love? And at what point did the poster suggest anything to do with the second sentence that you responded with? If he didn’t suggest that women who are victims of unrequited love are “crazy bitches”, are you not attempting to reduce his position to a presupposition of what you think he might say in such a situation? If so, isn’t your claim actually wildly anti-feminist?

        Now obviously he framed the issue in non-gender-neutral terms, but as a response to an article within which the issue is presented in the same terms, surely you can forgive him for that, or at the very least admit your own fault in writing an article framed in these terms. In other words it seems that either he’s wrong for framing the issue of asymmetrical relationships in gender specific terms, and you are too, or your response is incoherent insofar as it actually is a response, and not predicated on a presuppositional reading of his comment. I’m authentically curious about just what you mean…

        • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/augusta Augusta Christensen

          How is the implication not clear by virtue of using non-gender-neutral terms? He said, “I see where you are coming from, but I don’t think you truly understand what it is like to be in that position.” Why not? I went to high school, after all, the ultimate hell-scape of unrequited love. I was in love with my best friend until he died, and he actually did lead me on by being very possessive if I was ever with anyone else, but uninterested if I was single. I agree that that’s inappropriate behavior, but I never viewed my friendship with him as the means to having sex with him. I understand what unrequited love is like, but I don’t understand what the feeling of entitlement so many of these “Nice Guys” have is like.

          And that is why I brought up that double standard about the “crazy stalker” vs the “nice guy.” He didn’t reference that trope about women being crazy bitches if they like a guy who isn’t into them, and I didn’t accuse him of such. I brought that up because it’s a commonly held view in our society. Women are constantly painted as the obsessive, clingy, overattached components in a relationship. And that’s the context in which this conversation is happening; it’s the reason that I have experienced unrequited love and still not entitlement.

          • Mike

            well, all i got out of the second paragraph is a concession that the double standard is a non-sequitor. Nobody denies that such a caricature of women in relationships exists and nobody denies that it’s terrible. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn’t mean to say that the reason that you’ve never experienced a sense of entitlement is because women are painted in this way, but after re-reading the paragraph a few times i can’t put my finger on what it is you meant to say, so i’ll leave it be with a request to rephrase.

            as to not understanding the position of being in the friend zone, that was also the impression that I got after reading the article as you seem to give zero sympathy to the person who feels “friend zoned”. Maybe they don’t deserve it, maybe they do, but the fact that your advice on the matter seems to amount to “walk it off”, doesn’t give one the impression that you’ve actually been there or that you can empathize. So no I don’t think it was obvious that that he was saying that it’s because you’re a woman, I think it’s a reference to the content of your article where it addresses, or fails to address, the pathology of the “friend zoned” male.

            As to a feeling of sexual entitlement, it’s obviously an indefensible emotional space. A sense of entitlement is indeed an irrational and even an immoral response to the experience of unrequited love. But I’d venture the guess that even if you didn’t feel any sense of entitlement as a lovesick teenager (a deeply suspect proposition), you must’ve engaged in a kind of self-control that would make the Buddah blush if you can honestly claim that your love sickness didn’t drive you to the occasional irrational and even immoral act. In fact, I would say that’s probably the first classic sign of authentic love-sickness.

          • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/augusta Augusta Christensen

            Honestly do not know how it could be clearer. The idea that men are entitled to “get a shot” with women who aren’t interested – and just take a look at the comments if you don’t think that exists – is part of a sexist culture. Women who want a romantic relationship with men are either discounted entirely (see the “you don’t understand” comment) or painted as crazy stalkers.

            You’re right, I don’t have sympathy for someone who becomes resentful and bitter while lamenting the “friend zone.” Unrequited love sucks, but the only way to eventually have a healthy relationship is to move on – either as friends or not. John and I both moved on, but were pulled back to each other when the timing was better. Not because he kept badgering me, or resented me, or put in his time. He was a genuine friend without wanting anything in return, and I fell in love with him as an equal and a partner, not as some object that he got enough friendship tickets to buy at Chuck E Cheese.

            And yes, one look back at my cringeworthy teenage journals shows how desperate and irrational I was. But that was never a healthy relationship, and by the time you’re an adult, it’s best to avoid those situations rather than throw yourself into them while blaming the “friend zone.”

          • Mike

            I’d agree that there’s a troubling blight of arrested development in the male population. But the issue is that while what you have with John sounds fantastic, it seems absurd to normalize that process of courtship over the population. Some people frankly don’t want to be equals in a relationship, even if they say they do. Or at least some people don’t value that over the object of their pathological affections. This is true of men and women. Another way of saying it is, romance is messy and so are people in general. But the process of “growing up” as you put it, is indeed a process and a struggle. If you want men to “grow up” however (and i’m with you), the way to do that isn’t to exclude them on the basis of an all-too-common set of pathologies and then to weaponize the moral high ground of your relationship. In fact I think that the comments on here serve to demonstrate that point. Before reading the article, there was a hoard of frustrated confused guys, after reading the article there is also a hoard of frustrated and confused guys, only now they’re apparently banding together to affirm the narrative that they’re frustrated and confused about. So if the goal is to help people out of this state of masochism, I don’t think it’s terribly difficult to demonstrate that these tactics aren’t helpful. If the goal isn’t to do so, then you’re just sitting in judgement on hoards of people for not living up to your expectations AKA indulging in a sadomasochistic pathology.

          • Mike

            I forgot to address the sexist point. “The idea that men are entitled to “get a shot” with women who aren’t interested…is part of a sexist culture.” Yes, my left boot is also part of a sexist culture. But it’s naive to think that a bunch of whiney man-children are part of the mechanism by which that culture perpetuates itself any more that my left boot is. The sexism of our culture won’t be transformed by taking pot shots at confused, vulnerable people. When we talk about sexism, we’re talking about the power-relations that produce such cultural forms as the idea of “friend-zone”, and their historical development. Critiquing those forms is a necessary practice, but without diving into the subjectivity of, and empathizing with, these people you condemn, you’re effectively alienating the people who you wish to elevate.

  • Alan Russell

    But my main complaint with the whole being friends thing is the fact that, and I don’t get this, that women get just as offended if you only talk to them because you want a girlfriend or a relationship in that nature. Girls become friends with guys with the intent to never go any further than that. I have never known a Straight single male that has become friends with a straight single female and has not either wanted sex or a relationship. Guys do not talk or hang out with girls if they’re both straight and single and not want either sex or a relationship. See the last girl I dated we didn’t work out, it’s whatever. But i said I don’t want to be just friends or only friends and she asked me was I only talking to her to have her be my girlfriend and I said yeah. This made her upset, why? I don’t get it, “Oh I’m sorry I want to show you feelings and emotions that I won’t get back.” So why stay. and I know you said it’s okay to move on which I did, but still. I don’t believe she had any right to be mad because I didn’t want to just be friends.

    And lastly, I just do not believe that the author understands what men really mean by being in the “friend zone.” Guys who complain about being in the friend zone aren’t guys looking for one night stands or just to hook up. These men are guys who have the hardest time their entire life looking for a girlfriend, probably their first girlfriend. So they still know that even if they FINALLY start dating someone look how many relationships some people go through before finding the one. So they feel so left out, so far behind. These guys are men who having someone to care for, and to care for them has been their only goal and they have not succeed once, and constantly trying new girls as friends or more than friends and then failing over and over.

    It’s understandable that these types of people would be cold on someone who doesn’t have feelings for you when it’s the 4th or 5th time and you never even got to call anyone your girlfriend ever. Some people just are not happy unless they have someone to share their life with. The author seems to enjoy her life, that’s great for her. That’s really good she’s content with her life without having someone at certain points in her life. Some people aren’t wired that way and that’s why these guys are angry, or cold. You just have to see it from their eyes. Try to imagine your trying to reach your goal and your goal is the EXACT same person that stops you from completing it. You would be really frustrated. And you want to know why these guys stick around, YOUR STORY. lol. They stick around being the nice guy, even though it’s killing them, on the off chance the girl will turn around. Seriously, you just told a fairy tale. And that’s cool it happened but that’s why this is all happening. And like I said, no guy EVER calls himself in the “friendzone” looking for sex. They are looking for a girlfriend/relationship. If sex happens to come along with that after a time of dating, just icing on the cake.

    • http://gravatar.com/kartos kartos

      “I have never known a Straight single male that has become friends with a straight single female and has not either wanted sex or a relationship.”

      Why yes, because you have never experienced it, on a planet with 7 billion people, it clearly never happens. Perhaps if you stopped living in a fairytale land you would see that adults can be friends with adults and not want gratification out of it. Your whole post screams of bitterness.

    • CPB

      Here’s a frightening revelation: you live in a dystopian nightmare where women exist to be used by men (yourself included). Wake up and join reality. Oh, and your desire to turn every seedy a-hole, w/ no qualms about coercing women into bed, into objects of sympathy is gross and annoying.

      • Sin

        What exactly do you mean by “use”? What sort of relationships do you envision between a man and a woman (or between individuals of any gender) wherein they are not making use of each other for some sort of benefit?

        If two people chat over a drink together because they enjoy each other’s company, are they not making use of the other party to achieve that enjoyment? When a couple share a romantic relationship, are they not making use of their partner to achieve emotional fulfillment? When a couple have sex, are they not making use of their partner’s bodies to achieve some physical enjoyment?

        From the way you phrased your comment I get the feeling you’re referring to the last example, and at the same time portraying women as helpless victims to male power or something. Why is that? Perhaps you are justified in your “frightening revelation” if coercion or abuse was involved, but Alan certainly wasn’t describing a scenario where either was a factor; the scenario he described was simply one person seeking a certain class of “use” from another (i.e. the last two examples above) and not being interested in other “use” cases.

        In fact this is perfectly mirrored for the other party, who is only interested in “use” cases that do not involve emotional or physical intimacy. It’s unfortunate that the two parties are looking for different things out of the relationship, but why is only one side’s desires labelled “a dystopian nightmare where women exist to be used by men”?

        Am I missing something here? To my understanding anyone, man or woman, can exist perfectly fine as their own person. But when someone willing enters into any sort of relationship (personal, professional, romantic, etc.) with another person, they must be deriving some sort of benefit (“use”) from the relationship and should expect the other party to make “use” of them in return.

        Say a man seeks only stimulating intellectual discourse with a woman and not a sexual relationship. Would the woman only exist to be “used” by the man (for her great intellect) in that case? Is that a dystopian nightmare as well?

        In summary I think you’re getting some sort of vague scenario where a woman is used SEXUALLY (and against her will it sounds like, since you didn’t describe the other half of the relationship where the man exists to be used by the woman as well) out of Alan’s question of “why do girls get upset when guys tell them they’re only looking for a romantic relationship and not a platonic one”. You automatically made the women out to be victims, which I don’t think furthers either the causes of gender equality or feminism.

        P.S. If the question was “why do guys get upset when girls tell them they’re only interested in a platonic relationship and not a romantic one?” and someone jumps in and responds “you live in a dystopian nightmare where men exist to be used by women (for whatever interactions a platonic relationship entails)”, wouldn’t you find it a little odd?

    • http://accordingtosami.tumblr.com Sami Lawson

      ” I have never known a Straight single male that has become friends with a straight single female and has not either wanted sex or a relationship. ” You don’t see how there’s a huge, gigantic issue with your assertion that (straight) men just can’t seem to value women solely for their friendship? That the only worthwhile interaction with a straight, single female is to eventually try to bed her? You don’t see how that’s just a teensy itty bitty bit sexist? Maybe a bit of an issue? As for your example with your ex – you have every right to cut ties with her, of course. I, personally, have stayed friends with some exes and not with others for whatever reason. But if the only reason I’m given of an ex not wanting to stay friends with me basically boils down to “I’m not going to sleep with you/be in a relationship with you, so you no longer have any worth to me as a person,” then yeah I’d be insulted too.

      Even if these men are looking for a relationship, not just a hookup, as you assert (which may be true, for a good portion of them) they still act as if they’re entitled to it, that they’ve been a good enough friend that they should now get “promoted” to boyfriend status. So maybe they should stop passive-aggressively trying to pursue the same girl, who has no interest in them, and look for someone that does?

  • Mike

    I’d agree to an extent, but I feel like there are perhaps two forces that you’re underestimating. First off it seems naive to imply that ‘sexual invitation’ as an activity is an either/or phenomenon. That is to say either the girl is interested or she’s not, and those intentions are either clear, or can be clarified upon request. Perhaps you do operate that way, but it may be a bit far to suggest that that’s a normative state of affairs. I admittedly can only speak from experience on this matter (mine, as well as friends’), but being friends with a girl is one thing, however, the term ‘friend zone’ seems to me to be reserved for the girl who’s aware of the guy’s feelings, has no interest, and actively leads him on anyway. Now it should be noted that the guy in such a state of affairs, is an active participant in that dialectic. That is to say, he enables this subtly abusive behavior out of a misplaced need for affection, that likely stems from some pathological nexus of loneliness, which probably renders the decision to attempt to get into a relationship in the first place wildly irresponsible… but honestly who hasn’t been there in one way or another? Now surely it would be sexist to assume that all relationships of unrequited interest fall into this category, but again, at least in my experience, this kind of social sadomasochism isn’t so uncommon as to condemn to notion of “the friend zone” in and of itself as being sexist. I do however understand that there’s a certain sexist excess (sexess? not a word, but totally should be) of the term, that basically stems from defensively mobilizing it in the malicious way in which you rightly condemn.

    There is also the larger issue of the functioning of language within the context of what may be called “seduction” (here simply meaning social action oriented towards the development of a sexual relationship). There is what Wittgenstein called a “language-game”, associated with seduction. There is also a “language-game” associated with developing a friendship with a member of the opposite sex. The source of the frustration that you rightly point to, is the fact that these two “language-games” are populated with nearly identical words and sentences (signifier). The meme that you presented about “watching a movie”, is perhaps the perfect example of the issue that I’m trying to articulate. The question, “Do you want to come over and watch a movie?” is meaningful within the context of a platonic relationship, and its also meaningful within the context of a seduction as a sexual invitation (signified). I think this is all quite obvious, but a basic question arises – “Which is it?”. From the signifiers themselves, I can tell you from my own experience, that it’s not always obvious which language-game I’m in when talking to a girl, and having been an adolescent boy at one time in my life, I’m quite sympathetic to the frustration that can emerge from such ambiguity.

    At this point, you’re likely frustratedly pointing to the obvious method of resolving such a contradiction, which is some gesture towards clarification. That gesture can take two basic forms, making an advance of some sort, or simply stating that you have feelings. Now, perhaps I’m wrong in this assessment, but it appears that you tend to prefer the latter approach, and if that’s the case, you would be (again, in my humble experience) the exception to the rule. If only the statement “I have feelings for you” was accepted on a normative basis as a viable move! In fact, i would go so far as to risk the hypothesis that seduction, as a general practice actually requires this ambiguity in order to function. In other words, simply making that which is perceived to be implicit explicit, seems to actually be a turn off to at least some women. That being said, I’d also affirm that it takes a lot of a certain kind of courage to make ones self vulnerable in that way, and I think it may be an impossibility to expect such acts as the baseline for the entire male gender. (indeed in the past its usually taken a few drinks for me to even comprehend the idea of such a course of action as viable… I’m not proud.) The alternative (“making a move”, whatever that might mean) isn’t much better on the anxiety front either, as the potential calamity that can result is much more terrifying; I for one must admit to having ethical and aesthetic reservations over what can all too often be, such a boorish way to breach the issue. (These realities of what it is to participate (or ideally collaborate) in the activity of something like a “seduction”, seem to me to be a likely candidate for the reason why the genesis of “romance” in the modern world, is so often located within a mutually drunken haze, but I’d simply prefer to leave that conjecture suspended, as to follow it would lead me much farther off topic than I’d like.)

    The real point in sketching out some small part of the existential experience of what it is to attempt to ‘clarify’ the nature of the activity that’s being participated in, is to simply point to how honest-to-god terrifying it can be and how “If you have sincere, romantic feelings for a woman you’re friends with, be up front with her” isn’t an actual solution to the problems that you’re addressing. (To be clear, I mean that it’s not a solution to the frustration that’s the source of the problems that you’re outlining.) I’ve seen many a friend of mine (possibly including myself, but I’d have to think about it) develop feelings for a girl, be too terrified of taking any concrete steps, and as a result end up locked into a kind of perpetual motion machine of masochistic resentment/paralysis. This isn’t uncommon either, and may in fact even be some kind of quasi-necessary step in the psychology of “seduction” (another conjecture to leave suspended, but a truly interesting one). But this all-too-trite explication puts me back where i started; in suggesting that there are situations where the girl is truly, unknowingly and unfairly hurt by such a process, which you’ve rightly called out, and there are certainly situations where the girl can knowingly feed the fire. (In actual experience I’d say that both cases are likely rare extremes, as it’s a bit too ideal for me to say “she knows” or “she doesn’t”. There is much more likely in my view, a whole spectrum of romantic epistemology that is terminated at these extremes). With respect to the latter case I would defend the use of the term “friend-zone” and in the former I’d say that the use of that term does is in fact, sexist. In either case however, we have to admit that the “Nice Guy” is certainly not a nice guy.

    All of this though, IS built on a certain admission of spinelessness. No question about it. But I would perhaps say, that developing a tolerance to the anxiety surrounding the activity of “seduction”, is only accomplished through repeated failures. In this sense, one might say that failure is the true currency with which we as males, tend to buy the status of “boyfriend material”. Or if you prefer, failures are the experience points by which we level up. (/nerdiness) And not just once in our lives, mind you, but after every breakup. Perhaps the experience is the same for you as a female, but as someone who’d like to consider myself something of a feminist, i wouldn’t presume to speak on behalf of your experience.

    • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/jesse Jesse Lawson

      You said, “the term ‘friend zone’ seems to me to be reserved for the girl who’s aware of the guy’s feelings, has no interest, and actively leads him on anyway.”

      The problem with this mentality is that thinking a girl is leading you on even though you know she’s not interested makes every single thing she does look like flirtatious behavior. This causes her to have to suppress her personality and censor herself because if she’s not careful you might take it the wrong way and try to overstep a boundary.

      It’s a harmful mentality to think of a friendzone as a place where a girl puts you to flirt with you (“lead you on”) without ever committing to a relationship for a two reasons. First, it assumes that women are not allowed to be flirty or charismatic without some reciprocal behavior being automatically accepted by her. Second, it assumes that women purposefully control men by placing them into these fictitious zones, and assumes that men are somehow too stupid to be a woman’s friend without wanting to have sex with her.

      • Mike

        I’m not sure that I’ve even implied any of that.

        I’d agree that its wrong to “[think] a girl is leading you on even though you know she’s not interested makes every single thing she does look like flirtatious behavior.” And that that attitude CAN (women are not machines that give only one output for one input) “…[cause] her to have to suppress her personality and censor herself because if she’s not careful you might take it the wrong way and try to overstep a boundary.” I entirely affirm, repeatedly in my comment in fact, that such a situation is not normative, and go so far as to say that a pure example probably doesn’t exist. I merely point out that its naive to presuppose that it doesn’t exist to some degree, and exactly to the degree that it does, I don’t think its sexist to use the term. I also affirmed in much more course language that the guy is just as much at fault, if not more so.

        Second off, you’re equating “lead you on” with “being flirty and charismatic”. I’m equating “lead you on” with, for example, a girl that i know telling me point blank “No I’m not going to hook up with him, but I think it’s funny that he thinks he has a shot.” I also didn’t say that such a thing was true of women in general, I’m simply saying I’ve seen it before, and a few times at that. Shit I’ve even heard the statement “I totally friend-zoned him”. As to your point about men, I didn’t say that men in general are anything. I said that the author underestimates how difficult it can be for a guy to come out and say what he feels, if/when he has feelings for her, and repeatedly affirm that I’m talking about a situation where he does have feelings for her. This emphasis in no way precludes the possibility for a friendship between a man and a woman.

        In fact I’d go further, and challenge you to find me a statement within which I make any blanket statement about men or women, or make the claim that anything that I’ve said is normative. My claim is actually quite modest, it’s that how language functions around relationships is messy. Frustration emerges from this ambiguity. This frustration can be directed in all sorts of different ways. One of those ways is at the object of the male’s affection. This move isn’t NECESSARILY wrong, as people can be terrible to each other in all sorts of little ways and girls can be just as terrible as guys can. On top of that I’m repeatedly hedging my bets by being very clear that this is all from my experience alone.

  • http://www.facebook.com/goretorium.greeble Goretorium Greeble

    “When The Bass Player told me that he had a girlfriend – which left me dejected and more than a little drunk in the middle of Manhattan – John was the first person I called. He didn’t tell me “I told you so”, he didn’t throw it in my face that I could have been with him and he would never do that to me. He told me that he was sorry, and the guy was a jerk that didn’t deserve me. Again, he did that because that’s what friends do.”

    In other words, you made an incredibly stupid mistake but heaven forbid anybody have the unmitigated gall to actually point out how stupid you were, because that might hurt your feelings… You delicate little flower, you.

    • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/augusta Augusta Christensen

      Uh, I had an awesome time as a young woman in college and it didn’t work out how I’d hoped. How is that an “incredibly stupid mistake?” No one died. No one got pregnant. No one even got a yeast infection. And John, like the rest of my friends, thought it was a hilarious story (which it is). How you could turn a summer of being a groupie at 19 and the support of my best friend into some life-shattering mistake for which I need to be reprimanded heavily, I do not know.

  • Tk84

    This is a pretty horrific article. Since when does frustration over un-reciprocated love constitute being a pig? As a male, I’ve been interested in plenty of close female friends who didn’t return the feeling, and yes, I probably thought or said a lot of those things about them having poor taste in men, which they self-described and complained about frequently. But, those are just the typical stuff of stupid human mind tricks. I am attracted to people I respect greatly, and wishing that the attraction were mutual does NOT mean that I don’t value their friendship either way. If nothing happens, the feelings eventually fade, and life goes on. It’s a perfectly healthy, normal way to be. And frankly, the assumptions this article makes amount men smell of the same logic that produces the equally unfair phenomenon of what’s called slut-shaming. I really hope the author does not fully believe the things that the article suggests.

    • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/augusta Augusta Christensen

      Unrequited love is not the problem. Resenting women for not wanting to sleep with you and acting as though friendship is an appropriate way to manipulate women into sleeping with you IS a problem. It’s a symptom of centuries of male entitlement to female bodies, and it’s not okay. What you’re describing – being attracted to people you respect greatly, wishing things were different, moving on and staying friends or not – isn’t what this article is talking about. Becoming aggressive and resentful or feeling like a woman owes you sex because you’re nice to her is what the article is about.

      • Hello Wyrld

        I think you should try to be clearer about the distinctions you’re drawing. Behaving aggressively or arrogantly as a result of any kind of emotion is definitely bad. But the feelings that can motivate these actions should not themselves be blamed. And the attribution of these emotions and actions to some symptom of patriarchy is a little absurd. I have seen some women go to GREAT lengths to socially ostracize men who have rejected them (and here I don’t think the distinction between immediate rejection in the conventional sense and the rejection involved in ending a relationship is relevant), purely out of spite, and more often than not they have the gall to cast this in some kind of pseudo-ethical light among their female friends… it happens quite a bit among more immature segments of the female population. Along the same lines, the term “nice guy” you’re talking about, in the worst and most inane case, simply refers to a man who’ll stay with a woman, with the dichotomous implication that a man who realizes it’s not working and calls it off is a jerk for having given it a shot… it’s a term, I would thus argue, of FEMALE origin, created by similarly immature women who invoke that same self-centered pseudo-ethical framework! So basically SOME women have succeeded in giving SOME men the wrong idea of what a man who is genuinely nice to women should be like. That doesn’t seem like a “centuries-of-oppression” issue at its core, although I’m sure that male entitlement can be enabling in many cases.

        And your last paragraph, among other points in the article, definitely seems to denigrate the natural tendency to maintain distance after rejection which I think many people of both genders would exhibit, which I don’t think is fair as long as things are done gracefully. I don’t think it means that you don’t care about the person, since the implication is that you simply can’t be there for them in the way that they need right now since it would put your own emotional well being in jeopardy, and so this is the better option both for them and for you. It’s certainly better than shoving your resentment in their face, I know you’d agree. Perhaps you’re saying that the best people are those who don’t need that distance, but that if you do then that’s ok, and I’d probably agree with you in that case. But you spend so much time here vilifying others that it’s hard to tell if/when you’ve stopped. This is more a writing tip than an ethical problem I have with the nature of your writing overall.

      • http://gravatar.com/kartos kartos

        I really do not understand why other people (men, it seems, go figure~) are having trouble grasping the point of this article. It was very clearly written out, but I guess it’s hard to see through bitter-colored glasses?

        • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/jesse Jesse Lawson

          I’ll translate for them: “what so women weren’t put on earth to give me sex? This article is dumb.”

  • Erasmus

    It’s a pretty good article… but still, you have to admit. Bass Player: Winner

    Let’s compare, shall we? The Bass Player impressed you with his dickheadish coolness, and was able to enjoy your sexual companionship, but at no point did he ever have to deal with the more time consuming, tedious aspects of a human being (their emotions, likes, dislikes, pet peeves, allergies, phobias, etc). He was able to customize his experience with you to only include the features he wanted, and he probably got to do this all the time with a plethora of different women. If success is measured by the level at which an individual achieves the goals he sets for himself, i would count the Bass Player as a successful person.

    Now, John on the other hand was a nice friend who wanted to bone you, but while other men such as the Bass Player were getting to actually feel your insides, John was dealing with everything else you have to offer as a human being (most of which I would imagine is incredibly inconvenient). Perhaps he even liked those qualities. That’s probably why he was such a good friend. That being said, the fact of the matter is that he ended up being a last choice, and I’m willing to bet he noticed. Let’s be honest here for a second. You weren’t interested in John until you got your fun out of the way. He got put on the back burner while you enjoyed yourself with The Bass Player (and whoever else). If a male wants to watch a female he is attracted to mate with other men that are more sexually appealing first and then collect whatever these men leave behind, then by all means, be a John. But what this article really says (beneath the facade of being a tribute to what a true nice guy is), is that if a guy wants to have sex with the woman he is attracted to, his odds are in fact better if he is a dick.

    Basically, what you are saying, is that if a guy wants to bang a chick, he shouldn’t do the nice guy approach, because women are too foolish to realize that when dudes come up to them in a bar and act like a friend, they really just want to inject them with the baby gravy. This could be a huge disappointment for the girl later, who naively thought that they were so interesting that the guy talking to her about the philosophies of Kant at the bar didn’t really just want to fuck her silly.

    What you instead propose is that men who act like jerks will enjoy a life time of filling women’s vagina with their purple, veiny, throbbing man meat. Honey, we already have friends… they are called “other guys”. We have a lot in common with these “guys”… but they don’t have vaginas.

    Here’s another point I’d like to bring up. Men usually bond with other men over mutual interests. A mutual interest could spark over football. If two men love football, that is something they can enjoy watching together. If one man has an antique vehicle, another man may want to come over and drive it around. That would be the forming of a friendship, from a man’s perspective. With women, often times, the activity the man wants to enjoy with you is the rhythmic insertion of his penis into your sweat box. It doesn’t make that friendship any less valid than his friendship with the guy who owns the cool truck, or his team mate on the baseball team. It is, however, a deal breaker if the third baseman gets injured and cant play any more. He may remain cordial with the team, but they are gonna want another third basemen. Such is the case when women keep their pussies locked away and reserved for The Bass Player. The friendship didn’t quite work out… now it is time to move on. No hard feelings.

    • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/augusta Augusta Christensen

      I disagree. I am awesome, and John gets to enjoy that every single day. Sorry you can’t see women that way honey, but not everyone compartmentalizes their sexual partners as just sexual partners and nothing more. Not every man just wants to have sex with women, plenty of men are capable of having fulfilling friendships with women while sleeping with other women or no one at all. And seriously? Men and women can’t have mutual interests? All but one of my best friends from college are men – we have plenty of mutual interests and we’re still friends to this day. John and I are best friends, and we’re partners in everything, a concept that you clearly can’t grasp.

    • Kae Oz

      I think what is being said is that if all you want to do is “inject” someone with your “baby gravy”, don’t pretend you want to be friends then get pissed when you don’t get sex as if girls owe it to guys in payment for some imaginary due.
      If you want to have sex with a girl and not friendship, hit on her like an adult. Yes, it works.
      And maybe, if your the type of dude who uses the term “baby gravy”, do the world a public service and get a warning tattooed somewhere visible.

  • prarsena

    hard hitting journalism, please keep it up; the sixth grade me needs your guidance.

  • george

    Wait a minute. You’re together with someone that you were friends with before you started the relationship? Why am I arguing with you?

    Here’s what I think sucks. Getting into a relationship with someone who ISN’T your friend. Who you quickly realize could NEVER be your friend. You stay together until the sex turns bad. That’s how you get weekend dads.

    We can’t all be James Carville and Mary Matalin and just hate fuck each other all the time.

  • L.G.

    You know what I hate?

    When I meet an awesome new person and we get along great and I’m really excited to make a new friend…

    Only to discover they only were being awesome to me in the hopes that we’d sleep together, and once they realized that option was off the table, they don’t want to be my friend anymore. That kind of rejection really hurts, you know? No matter how much it stings to learn that someone you had romantic feelings about doesn’t feel the same way (and I KNOW it does, I’ve been in that position before too), it hurts SO much more to find out that your friend was never your friend.

    Nothing hurts quite as much as…
    THE RELATIONSHIP ZONE

      • http://infiniteidea.net Daniel LaCosse

        lol

      • Luke L

        I am a nice guy. I also have lots of platonic female friends, and I have lots of female friends who I occasionally hook up with.

        Here are my questions for you. Do you make her laugh? Do you make her feel emotions? Do you genuinely add value to her life? Or do you just think you deserve her in your life because you’re “nice” and you “treat her right”?

        Women want to be treated like human beings. They don’t want you to wait on them hand and foot, because that’s not attractive. She doesn’t want to be put on a pedestal, she wants someone who treats her as an equal.

        I think about it this way: I am nice to my friends. I do nice things for them, and I always help out in a time of need. But I also tease them, give them tough advise when they need to hear it and am a general pain in the ass sometimes. That’s part of friendship. Do the same thing with a woman, and she’ll still think you’re nice, but she’ll have a much greater chance of being attracted to you. And if she isn’t, it doesn’t matter, because you’ve got a great friendship out of it anyway.

        • http://www.lawsonry.com/author/augusta Augusta Christensen

          Thanks for being a nice guy, Luke, not a “Nice Guy.”

      • prarsena

        sad guy vents on the internet, gets slammed by other comments and the author of the article, continuing the shame spiral.

        Don’t give up hope James. You’ll find someone for you.

      • CPB

        Oh, you were done a very long time ago by the looks of things.

    • http://turandot.typepad.com Annalisa

      There’s a difference between you being angry at her because she’s just going back to an abusive ex (a good friend would be), and being angry at her because she’d rather be with him than you.

      Here’s the litmus test. Take that break from her. Return to be her friend when you feel ready. When she hopefully moves on to a new guy, gauge how you feel. If you’re happy that she’s with a better guy, then you’ll probably be fine as friends. If it irks you that you were friends with her through thick and thin and she still went with some other guy, do her and yourself a favor, and realize that your friendship is at an end, and you need to move on.

      • prarsena

        > helpful commenter
        > you

        pick one.

      • https://www.facebook.com/kirsten.weathers Kirsten Weathers

        This is a brave account of a real problem. thank you for this article and putting your personal life out there for us all.. Ill be coming back for more for sure

      • Joshua

        I am a man. I too agree that the friend zone does not exist, because in my experiences (that is an important qualifier), women are fickle. Women will not be attracted to you at one point and then maybe later will grow to be attracted to you, the opposite, and even mixtures of the two.

        I think that a man, who knows the value of the woman he is going after, can successfully be her friend and then become romantically involved with her, even if she is not interested at first. But the man has to know his limits and when he is not the boyfriend, he can’t be playing boyfriend. But the best way, if you REALLY are in love with a girl, and for some reason can’t move on…be that friend, be there for her. not BECAUSE you want to be with her later, but because you value her as that person who you decided was worthy of being with, which in my world view makes her just as worthy of befriending. And your best chances of being with her later are to treat her with respect now.

        Some men just can’t get over vaginas though. As if there aren’t north of 3 billion of them around :)

    • http://turandot.typepad.com Annalisa

      It’s not about being unable to move on. It’s about not making it clear to both yourself and the other person that your feelings are such that you will need time away to fully get over it, and you might possibly never come around to it. It’s hiding your feelings of hurt and pretending nothing is wrong, while waiting and hoping that things will change.

      Distancing yourself from someone who doesn’t return your feelings because you’re hurt about that IS what is supposed to happen when you fall for a friend who doesn’t love you back the same way. You doing that means that you value that initial friendship enough not to want to continue it under false pretenses.

      It’s the difference between thinking and saying “I respect that you don’t feel that way, but my feelings are hurt enough that I have to stop being your friend for a while (maybe even for good)” vs. thinking to yourself “Okay, you don’t want me now, but I’ll hang on to your friendship until you change your mind (while I slowly grow resentful of the fact that you haven’t yet)” that differentiates a nice guy/gal from a Nice Guy/Gal(tm).

    • http://turandot.typepad.com Annalisa

      That’s not being friend zoned. That’s having someone be manipulative with you, and I’m sorry this happened to you.

      If I were you, I would have confronted Person B after they started giving you mixed messages. A simple “Look, I told you I felt attracted to you, and you said you didn’t care for that. I tried to just be a friend, but you act like you want romantic attention. I don’t know if this is something you are doing on purpose, or you just can’t help yourself. But it’s what’s happening, and it’s hurtful.” would suffice. If Person B is honest with herself, she’d either stop it, or decide that the two of you can’t be friends (sorry!). If Person B is dishonest with herself or you, then you probably decide it’s on you to just stop being friends.

      The problem with a Nice Guy(tm), is that said guy will not be honest about the above problem with his friend/crush. He would rather seethe about being overlooked as romantic fodder than clear the air. He will never confront Person B about the way she acts flirty with him when he stops fawning over her, because he would rather take the misguided kind of attention your Person B displayed than nothing at all. To paraphrase another guy upthread, a Nice Guy(tm) doesn’t have the fortitude to move on from hoping the friendship will magically transform into something better.

      • Sin

        Oh, I see. So Jessica is entitled to her inflammatory remarks because she is, as you say, a woman. And Tomas, as a man, has no place “coming in here” and asking her to “tone down her anger” and participate in civil discourse. Would it be OK if Tomas was a woman? Could a woman, theoretically, “come in here” and inform Jessica that her tone of voice is caustic, dismissive, and unhelpful in either delivering her own points or furthering the discussion at hand?

        I always thought feminism was about gender equality, not female entitlement. Count me amongst the naive, I guess.